For a while I was defending this game against people complaining about it being a boardgame, but now that I see this, I think I agree with them. That's way too many bits for an rpg! With any other rpg, the only "setup" involved is grabbing your dice and a pen/pencil and pulling out your character sheet. The thing is, this game might actually be fun, but I have a feeling it's going to fit in an uncomfortable spot between a boardgame with not enough structure and a roleplaying game with too constrictive of rules.
I have never seen a problem with the "bits" of the game. In fact, what role player worth their geek weight in various sided dice hasn't played an RPG with miniatures at least once in their illustrious campaigns?
Isn't playing with "bits" on a "board" or mat the very core of a board game? True,I acknowledge that it is not the same thing, but nor is it entirely different.
A board game has specific rules and a defined end. An RPG has defined rules, too, but has not set boundaries.
I think adding bits and boards to an RPG takes nothing away from the game itself. What it does do is entreat others to rethink their assumptions of what makes an RPG. Be it played in the mind, on the board, or both.
oooo, bits. I like the idea of cards for actions and things (I've gone so far as making my own Rogue Trader Space Combat Action Cards set), and this has all kinds of neat stuff in it. It MUST be Mine! (/Igor)
For a while I was defending this game against people complaining about it being a boardgame, but now that I see this, I think I agree with them. That's way too many bits for an rpg! With any other rpg, the only "setup" involved is grabbing your dice and a pen/pencil and pulling out your character sheet. The thing is, this game might actually be fun, but I have a feeling it's going to fit in an uncomfortable spot between a boardgame with not enough structure and a roleplaying game with too constrictive of rules.
Yes it looks nothing like an RPG if your idea of an RPG is limited.
I don't know about everyone else but I've had to instruct new players on how to play in every RPG I've run. In-fact I usually have to teach every game that is played in my group because it is not a rules heavy group. We're a rules-lite group who do well with boardgames and while we enjoy RPGs they don't always end up going so well because things are usually quite disorganized.
A fusion of the devices of a board game and the character development and freeform design of a RPG sounds excellent to me. Something we can pull out and throw together with elements that will be remembered because they have a cardboard presence. Not ephemeral rules citations and "I think it works like this..."
Not everyone has the time to make materials for every element in their RPG. Not everyone has the time to read the 300 page book explaining how to play the game.
This seems like something for those kinds of people. To me, that is excellent and it only sweetens the deal that it is set in the world that I've been gaming in since I was 12.
For too long, game companies have foisted new editions upon their customers in an attempt to maximize their cash return. Ya know, 'market saturation'. Forget finding new players, let's render the rules 'obselete', and those people who must have the 'latest and greatest'(who oftentimes seem to love change for changes' sake, in my opinion) will rush to shower you with cash. Alternatively(and/or in addition to), you could sell endless streams of supplements, see most notably White Wolfs 'splatbooks', TSR/WOTC's 'Player's Options', and oh yeah, Games Workships Mini Games....
This brings us to the most egregious example of the above since D&D Three Point Five! The company that makes overpriced mini games joins up with the guys who sell ridiculously expensive board games(and CCGs) to create an icon of true marketing synergy: a game with CCG elements, collectability(custom dice[only enough for 4 in the box!] and encounter/spell/character., etc cards) and board game components marketed as an (hundred dollar) RPG! More (exorbitant)expansions to come, no doubt.
WFRP First and Second Edition only required the corebook, one set of dice, and your(and your friends) imagination. Not enough profit potential there, obviously.... I'm a fan of the Old World, can't you tell?
As for 300 page rulebooks, they tend to be mainly elaborations on core concepts(optional), game fiction, and setting description. You don't have to be familiar with, or even read, it all! Regarding time, you can put in as little, or as much, into RPGs; it's a hobby, not a job.
The kind of people this is aimed are those with a 100 bucks to spare, who don't mind playing a game with more cardboard in it than any 3 monopoly sets, aren't puzzled as to why a 'RPG' would need custom dice(available only from the manufacturer), and who are enthralled by the lackluster corporate spiel on the back of the box. The idea this is the uninitiated's gateway to RPGs is laughable on its face. Magic, Heroquest/Warhammer Boardgames, Heroclix, etc... are no more likely to interest people in RPGs than say fantasy novels(LOTR, Conan, Wheel of Time, Shanara)and/or electronic adventure games(Zelda, Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, the venerable Ultima). Kudos to the PR shills at FFG for attempting this line of attack, though.(They must be building their stance meters towards 'Optimistic').
However, it's oddly appropriate for the bleak and nihilistic Warhammer to have taken this turn. Somewhere the Chaos Gods are feasting... Challenge to FFG/GW: Can you re-imagine Dark Heresy into a 35 pound box with all METAL game accesories, innovative conflict resolution utilizing special limited access official spinner bracelets, and enough setting info for 1 and 1/2 players all for the low cost of $280?
I wish GW had simply re-released/re-worked Warhammer Quest instead of this; but I'm not in charge... That said, I hope those who purchase this are happy with it.(No, really ) But if you will, give a thought to those whose (valid) opinions are being dismissed as nostalgia, fear of change, misplaced hatred of capitalism or just 'sour grapes'.
I think that criticism is kind of harsh really. I don't think there's a game company in the world that isn't staffed by geeks who love what they do. And those companies need to make new products -- all companies do or they cease being companies. Who gets mad at a car company for upping the ante with an electric car, for example? What's more, I've spent a lot more than $100 (or $200) on splats, minis and modules for many of the games I've played. I love to see how games evolve from stapled mimeographed rulesets to the likes of Space Hulk! Or Runebound! Or I could name a million.
And what's wrong with more cardboard than three monopoly sets? I love it! You should see my friend Steve! he has probably a TONNE of Dwarven Forge scenery, and it won't fit in any box, and it's amazing and makes games more fun! And D&D 4e ... I love the cards so much better than writing down everything! While that's fun too... I've done it for the 20 years I've been playing games and I'm willing to try this out.
In fact I came up with an idea just like this in 2006, just ask Chris at Cubicle 7.
As far as it not drawing people in any more than a good book, film, or video game? You mention many of the best ways to draw in new gamers. The world is a big place and there's room for this game and more. Don't hate, just don't buy if yer not interested. As a gamer, I love games (and gamers!). The more the better, and I welcome this new entrant!
For too long, game companies have foisted new editions upon their customers in an attempt to maximize their cash return. Ya know, 'market saturation'. Forget finding new players, let's render the rules 'obselete', and those people who must have the 'latest and greatest'(who oftentimes seem to love change for changes' sake, in my opinion) will rush to shower you with cash. Alternatively(and/or in addition to), you could sell endless streams of supplements, see most notably White Wolfs 'splatbooks', TSR/WOTC's 'Player's Options', and oh yeah, Games Workships Mini Games....
This brings us to the most egregious example of the above since D&D Three Point Five! The company that makes overpriced mini games joins up with the guys who sell ridiculously expensive board games(and CCGs) to create an icon of true marketing synergy: a game with CCG elements, collectability(custom dice[only enough for 4 in the box!] and encounter/spell/character., etc cards) and board game components marketed as an (hundred dollar) RPG! More (exorbitant)expansions to come, no doubt.
WFRP First and Second Edition only required the corebook, one set of dice, and your(and your friends) imagination. Not enough profit potential there, obviously.... I'm a fan of the Old World, can't you tell?
As for 300 page rulebooks, they tend to be mainly elaborations on core concepts(optional), game fiction, and setting description. You don't have to be familiar with, or even read, it all! Regarding time, you can put in as little, or as much, into RPGs; it's a hobby, not a job.
The kind of people this is aimed are those with a 100 bucks to spare, who don't mind playing a game with more cardboard in it than any 3 monopoly sets, aren't puzzled as to why a 'RPG' would need custom dice(available only from the manufacturer), and who are enthralled by the lackluster corporate spiel on the back of the box. The idea this is the uninitiated's gateway to RPGs is laughable on its face. Magic, Heroquest/Warhammer Boardgames, Heroclix, etc... are no more likely to interest people in RPGs than say fantasy novels(LOTR, Conan, Wheel of Time, Shanara)and/or electronic adventure games(Zelda, Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, the venerable Ultima). Kudos to the PR shills at FFG for attempting this line of attack, though.(They must be building their stance meters towards 'Optimistic').
However, it's oddly appropriate for the bleak and nihilistic Warhammer to have taken this turn. Somewhere the Chaos Gods are feasting... Challenge to FFG/GW: Can you re-imagine Dark Heresy into a 35 pound box with all METAL game accesories, innovative conflict resolution utilizing special limited access official spinner bracelets, and enough setting info for 1 and 1/2 players all for the low cost of $280?
I wish GW had simply re-released/re-worked Warhammer Quest instead of this; but I'm not in charge... That said, I hope those who purchase this are happy with it.(No, really ) But if you will, give a thought to those whose (valid) opinions are being dismissed as nostalgia, fear of change, misplaced hatred of capitalism or just 'sour grapes'.
Well, I must say that I had a character creation session on Monday and we went through the rules. It doesnt sound as if you have read through the rules at all have you? This game offers a TON of creative slack for both GM and players. The system is intuitive and streamlined and the gameplay is quick. The 'more cardboard than a monopoly set' remark is pretty funny considering 3 monopoly sets contains three peices of cardboard as part of the game. The dice system is very cool and allows the GM and players to easily modify any role depending ont he situation. anyway, The chits and whathave you are components that make book keeping fast and easy and easily seen by everyone at the table. This is fantastic IMO. If that in some crazy world, makes this game like a boardgame then I wish every RPGs was like a boardgame. The fact of the matter is that it doesnt at all, not even remotely. The cards are basically what would be in the book... skills and actions, easily referenced, passed around the table... visible by all etc. This game comes out of the box extremely streamlined and very playable.
You complain about a game that is totally playable at 100$? (75 dollars with free shipping from many places on Ebay.)
well lets look at the VERY basic set of gear that I just got rid of from D&D 3.5 I'll be modest with the prices here, its what I payed:
Total cost????? hmmmm looks like somewhere around 102 dollars... interesting.. and thats just the books and a very basic dice set. Most people who play have much more than that. and this is just for the Core set!! MUCH more than just that is available in WHFRP for less money.
Take a look at Pathfinder... you will find the same prices.. actually more.
Core rulebook. 49.99 Beastiary 49.99 Dice set BASIC 12 and this doesnt include the game mastery guide for another 39.99
price 111.98
The price for what you get in v3 is great.
I started with D & D in 1979 and this is the first RPG that has kindled my interest in the genre since the early 90s. Inflation is a bitch. even back in the 90s I had 100 bucks worth of rifts stuff when we played. I think nostalgia truely IS the culprit here cuase it sure aint cost.
Very excited about this product.
to answer your rant about making money. Everything is more expensive nowadays not only for the customer but also for the publisher. If they come up with a retail design that offers the customer high quality products and allows the customer to pick in choose what they want or dont want (IE you dont HAVE to buy it) then more power too them. I have no problem with any company making quality geer attempting to maximize thier profits. Afterall, the customers really decide how much they are willing to spend.
Honestly, everyone is intitled to thier opinion, but I just dont feel like you have enough knowledge about the game to make the comments you are making.
For a while I was defending this game against people complaining about it being a boardgame, but now that I see this, I think I agree with them. That's way too many bits for an rpg! With any other rpg, the only "setup" involved is grabbing your dice and a pen/pencil and pulling out your character sheet. The thing is, this game might actually be fun, but I have a feeling it's going to fit in an uncomfortable spot between a boardgame with not enough structure and a roleplaying game with too constrictive of rules.
My guess is its still less of a boardgame than DnD 4th Ed, or even 3.5 as it doesnt use miniatures or a battle grid... as far as I'm aware... I havent played it.
) But if you will, give a thought to those whose (valid) opinions are being dismissed as nostalgia, fear of change, misplaced hatred of capitalism or just 'sour grapes'.
