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Krzysztof Zięba
Poland
Kraków
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I've just seen this: http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/edge_minisite_sec.asp?eidm...
It seems that giving the license to FFG was the worst decision in the modern history of RPG's. If they wanted to make a board game, why didn't they do Warhammer Quest encore? From what I see here, this is "Warhammer: Age of Reckoning - The Tabletop MMORPG". I feel seriously offended by what they did here...
Argh, I can't say how happy I am to have bought the second edition. The people who said that it was not as grim and gritty as the first edition are going to feel soooo stupid when this comes out...
Just a few quotes that fuel my rage:
"Mighty warriors perform mighty deeds."
"There are more than 30 custom dice included to help you craft your story."
"Every hero is powerful on their own"
"Three players form the hero party, seeking out adventure and glory."
Any of that sounds like Warhammer to you?
Thought so.
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Rich P
Colombia
Sheffield
United Kingdom
I didn't know what to do with my UberBadge, so I left it as a GeekBadge.
I'm on a world tour right now, with limited access to BGG. My microbadges will spell out where I am at the moment.
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No, it's not very Warhammer, but most of it is just typical marketing nonsense, which you always have to take with a pinch of salt. We need more information before we see whether this really is the direction they're taking this new game.
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Krzysztof Zięba
Poland
Kraków
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Well, I've seen enough to be honest. They are saying that the "grimness" of Warhammer is that it's got "War" written all over it. What about all the other stuff that was a trademark of the setting? What's left of Warhammer if all the characters you play are members of classes you had to work VERY hard in original Warhammer to even consider taking?
Plus - the board-gamish elements (cards with different combinations, player cards who look like taken out from Talisman) fill me with dread...
No, really, this is going to be a complementary product for Age of Reckoning fans when there's a power failure in town...
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Randy Shipp
United States
Irving
Texas
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Lord_Kristof wrote: No, really, this is going to be a complementary product for Age of Reckoning fans when there's a power failure in town...
Those exist? During the short time that my wife and I played the game, we struggled to find enough other players online to make it enjoyable. Combine that with a decidedly second-rate engine and lackluster quests, and it didn't take long for us to fire up our Lord of the Rings Online accounts again.
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Joel Daves
United States
Westminster
Colorado
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The "grim world of perilous adventure" from first edition is long gone. GW's stipulation that new WFRP products are set in the current WFB world insures that - WFB7's old world is not the classic WFRP old world by a longshot. This was unfortunately apparent in the 2nd edition sourcebooks, and even back to some of Hogshead's 1st edition books (color magic in Realms of Sorcery?). This new edition appears to just continue that trend.
Mirroring what's been said elsewhere, I really don't see who FFG is targeting with this. The price point is too high to pull in completely new gamers, the WFRP grognards are going to do what they've always done and just stick with their old books and fan produced material, and the need for a gamemaster means this probably isn't going to pull in much new blood from the cooperative board game crowd. You may be right in that this is aimed for the MMORPG players, but even then, AOR has a much smaller player base than WoW, and I'd be surprised if most of them weren't already familiar with the existing Warhammer products on some level. I'd love to hear the logic behind this one..
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Kristian
United States
Seattle
Washington
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cylence wrote: I'd love to hear the logic behind this one..
3e WFRP = > $$$$
Whether that logic plays out as they hope or not will be the million dollar question.
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Sean Todd
United States
Bloomington
Minnesota
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The game looks like a hybrid boardgame/rpg. Elements of Descent & WoW the boardgame, with a player mat that gets cards placed on it for a character's abilities and special dice that share symbols with the cards. On the one hand, I don't see anything wrong with exploring that design space, on the other...why end WHFRP 2.0 to do it? I don't see why they had to go out of their way to hurt the existing fan base this way. They could have continued to publish 2.0 books and positioned this game as a hybrid that used the same fluff from 2.0 with different crunch.
The only thing that makes sense to me is that they were working on this design and hoped to acquire a license to attach to it. But if that's the case, it still seems incredibly short sighted. WHFRP fans waited for decades for someone to pick up this game, Black Industries finally does, they produce a whole line of products that original fans are excited about and then this. They had a perfect opportunity to steal fans dissatisfied with D&D 4.0 and then this.
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Sven Reuter
Germany
Frankfurt am Main
Hessen
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greyareabeyond wrote: The game looks like a hybrid boardgame/rpg. Elements of Descent & WoW the boardgame, with a player mat that gets cards placed on it for a character's abilities and special dice that share symbols with the cards. On the one hand, I don't see anything wrong with exploring that design space, on the other...why end WHFRP 2.0 to do it?
My thoughts exactly. I would be all for exploring the possibilites of an RPG/Boardgame hybrid. I LOVE this idea!
But this as a new edition for WFRP? No way! As a new seperate game? Yes, show me what you can do and throw all RPGness that doesn't fit the concept overboard.
Though 100$ still seems a bit steep...
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cylence wrote: I really don't see who FFG is targeting with this.
And the short answer: me. And probably some other players but that's less interesting from my point of view. 
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SJ Benoist
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
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I'll chime in my agreement.
Cool idea, but did you really have to terminate the 2e RPG-line to do it? You couldn't keep both?
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Josh Jenkins
United States
Henderson
Kentucky
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*Stepping up on Soapbox*
I'm a huge WFRP fan. It's probably my second favorite RPG after Call of Cthulhu. I really felt like (engine-wise) Green Ronin did a masterful job of bringing everything that was good about first edition into second edition and weeding out pretty much all that was broken about the game. I haven't really had any complaints about the second edtion.
That said, count me among those very intrigued and excited by this announcement. I love games. All games. RPGs are my lifelong love, but I've seen lots of mechanics and other design elements in boardgames, miniatures battle games and card games over they years that I thought could be successfully dovetailed into an RPG.
I've actually been playing a Descent: Road to Legend campaign with my best friend that incorporates numerous RPG elements into the game. We role play out the tavern scenes and confrontations with the "bosses" in the dungeons. We come up with all new names and backstories for our characters and really bring that part into the game. It's a very satisfying incorporation of roleplaying into a board game.
Now, I think FFG is flipping this, bringing elements from their incredibly successful background in board games into the tried-and-true RPG. And after watching the videos from GenCon and reading the material on FFG's site, I believe this is a true RPG -- just with a 21st century interface and components.
There's quite a bit to be said for having all of the information on your character and their abilities in front of you in detail, without having to flip through the books for details of abilities or effects. I also think custom dice can do more than tell you whether or not you succeed or fail in a given check, adding more wrinkles and giving you a solid foundation for imagining and describing the entirety of the success or failure.
FFG does this exceptionally well with the dice like those in Doom, Descent and those for movement in Runebound. They are far more interesting than achieving some numerical goal, adding flavor and detail to the roll without being cumbersome.
Another element I'm excited about is the attention to the "party" dynamic and having elements of play that are tied concretely to the construction and "personality" of the party. I've enjoyed similar devices in Exalted with Solar Circles and Ars Magica with Covenants. The idea of an innovative execution of this all-important concept is one I'm very interested in experimenting with.
Then, there's the fact that the components sound exquisite. I LOVED my second edition D&D boxed sets. Forgotten Realms. Kara-Tur. Ravenloft. SpellJammer. Filled with the maps, books and overlays. Even when I wasn't gaming I loved cracking them open and just poring over the materials.
It's true my favorite game is Call of Cthulhu, which tends to have simple black and white books, a generic rules set, and average artwork. That said, I am a sucker for presentation, and this game looks like it makes a major effort to engross players with the multiple full-color tomes, art-rich cards and icon-based dice. None of which make for a good game in and of themselves, but if FFG has done as I hope they have -- they've kept a core of a really solid RPG in this ostentatious package.
People who talk about this breaking the mood of the Old World sure are being selective in what they interpret as canon. Yes the Old World has an amazing sense of this war-torn land with dark and cosmic horror seeping through the cracks. But it's also the world of Blood Bowl. It's also the world of William King's over-the-top cheesy Gotrek and Felix adventures. It's also the world of Goblin Fanatics and Shamans who blow their heads off with miscasts.
And as far as this shift in interface representing some sort of blasphemy in terms of interacting with the Warhammer world, I was enjoying the hell out of games like Warhammer Quest, Heroquest and Battlemasters while I was first developing my understanding of what that world was, and I can assure you they didn't in the slightest destroy any illusions.
Finally, as far as the cost goes, $100 is a nice chunk of change. That's undeniable.
However, I have several hundred dollars worth (EACH) of WFRP 1E and 2E and Dark Heresy books -- so why the outrage? RPGs are expensive. Core books are regularly $50+ and rarely do they constitute all one needs to play. Even if WFRP is admittedly teetering toward obscene end in price for an RPG, I still see a box with all four people need to enjoy the heck out of a game for hours and hours on end for the same or less as you can buy a couple of video games that will be obsolete in a few months.
Now, anybody looking at my microbadges will see I'm an unapologetic FFG fan. Anybody reading my bio, however, will also know I came to the hobby through role playing and still hold that as the most sacred gaming experience. I've been playing Warhammer for a dozen years and that IP is something I care a great deal about as well. I could be completely wrong about all of this, but I have confidence in FFG as a company to innovate and improve upon a game I already love.
If they don't, they sure as Hell aren't going to break into my house and steal all of the 2E stuff I have, which is more than enough to go on enjoying the game as is in perpetuity. For that matter, most of the best stuff for any RPG is released in the first year, anyway. After that, it's almost always a crap-shoot.
At the very least, I'm going to wait until I see it and play WFRP 3E before I pass final judgment.
It might just be that the guys at FFG know what they're doing.
*Stepping down off soapbox*
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jgerman wrote: So what is it about it that appeals?
Boardgames are great, RPGs are great. I like game boards, cards and bits. Having everything the whole group needs in a box is awesome. I like lifepath systems.
I'm not a Warhammer fan, played 2nd edition and the MMO for a little while and it was nice. I'm not attached to the setting but I like it.
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Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
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chaosjenkins wrote:
Finally, as far as the cost goes, $100 is a nice chunk of change. That's undeniable.
However, I have several hundred dollars worth (EACH) of WFRP 1E and 2E and Dark Heresy books -- so why the outrage? RPGs are expensive. Core books are regularly $50+ and rarely do they constitute all one needs to play.
People shouldn't buy those games then. There are reasonable alternatives from non-indie companies with lots of support.
Savage Worlds Explorers Edition is what $10. All you need is a few dice. Even a book with a full setting and campaign will add less than $20.
Traveller - the pocket edition of the core rules is only $20. All you need to run a game. It only uses d6 so you should have some of those already. Plenty of free resources on the net.
Mongoose Runequest - the pocket edition is only $25. Contains the core book, the companion and monsters book. OK it needs some dice.
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Ernesto Cabrera
Mexico
Mexico
D.F.
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It's Forgotten Realms 4e all over again:
Announcement -> Nerdrage (aka "OMG they changed everything") -> Acceptance/Realization that all old material is still out there...
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fen
United Kingdom
Cardiff
The Vale of Glamorgan
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jgerman wrote: But it's also the world of Blood Bowl.
You're right for the rest, but not on this point. Blood Bowl takes place in an offical 'alternate Warhammer world' where the races all substituted war for the decree of Nuffle and took up Blood Bowl instead. If you look at the offical stance for GW you'll see they've been very careful to make this distinction in order to keep Blood Bowl light and fun without compromising the rest of their material.
That's why it can get away with a really wacky theme and style to it and remain cannon.
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Josh Jenkins
United States
Henderson
Kentucky
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Styfen wrote: jgerman wrote: But it's also the world of Blood Bowl. You're right for the rest, but not on this point. Blood Bowl takes place in an offical 'alternate Warhammer world' where the races all substituted war for the decree of Nuffle and took up Blood Bowl instead. If you look at the offical stance for GW you'll see they've been very careful to make this distinction in order to keep Blood Bowl light and fun without compromising the rest of their material. That's why it can get away with a really wacky theme and style to it and remain cannon.
Point — (Although one of my earliest memories of playing WFRP actually involved foiling an assassination attempt at a Blood Bowl match). That said, there are numerous other examples of The Old World being more than just this bleak, nihilistic existence entirely permeated by a sense of doom.
From the out-and-out silliness of the old Skaven Doomwheel (A giant hamster wheel for ratmen, really?), to the goofing on names and in-jokes throughout even the moodiest 1E WFRP modules, to the valorous, larger-than-life heroes of the Dogs of War Regiments of Renown.
Now, what I've always liked best about the setting is the high lethality and that quasi-Lovecraftian flavor, affording a chance to play in a fantasy world in which man was not meant to know the dark, lurking secrets. I'm not arguing folks should accept that it's a zany four-color fantasy setting comparable to old school Greyhawk or anything. I am saying 1.) Tone will always be the primary responsibility of the game master and the group playing the game and 2.) There's always been more to the Warhammer world than just the gritty John Blanche-esque darkness.
Ultimately, I don't think FFG is going to make quite the departure from the Theme/Tone of WFRP people are fearing (although the early marketing effort undeniably gives individuals good cause for that concern), but I also think there's room in the game for high adventure, at least until a clawed hand tears through the Warp and rips the dashing hero into a hell of gibbering mouths, writhing tentacles and dripping fangs.
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fen
United Kingdom
Cardiff
The Vale of Glamorgan
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chaosjenkins wrote: 1.) Tone will always be the primary responsibility of the game master and the group playing the game
Absolutely, the group I'm running the classic horror adventure 'Horror on the Orient Express' keep turning it into a debacle, while a little comedy is OK to lighten the mood it's really annoying when it's inappropriately used. Moody and tense moments have been repeatedly ruined by one or two of them goofing about and cracking wall breaking jokes - as such several of the scenarios have turned into disappointing skits.
Needless to say I shan't be GMing Call of Cthulhu with them again, they're not the right fit for the genre (and if I'm honest it's kind of bummed me out a bit because I love running proper horror.)
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Krzysztof Zięba
Poland
Kraków
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Ok, here's a thought:
A colleague of mine added something to the discussion by stating the following in a similar discussion:
"Warhammer is really nothing more than re-themed D&D, and it's the players who THINK that it should be played as a dark, gritty game where the PC's are pansies which could get their asses kicked by near anyone."
Some arguments he used - which I think are worth looking at:
1) there is a lot of reference to the players being "heroes". First of all - Destiny Points (I'm not sure if it's called the same thing in English). They make the PC's less likely to die, while people tend to think that the mortality rate should be high in WFRP. Plus, the nature of these points, as being a favor of the Gods. Secondly, the fact that (at least in the second edition) there is a note at least in a couple of places that the starting professions is not what your character IS doing, but what he USED to do before deciding on the path of an Adventurer.
2) some of the symbols of Warhammer are not Rat Catchers and Beggars, but a Troll Slayer, a Sigmar Priest (with a big-ass hammer) and a mage. Plus - covers of all editions include art that suggests Warhammer is about fighting big/a lot of creatures.
3) the mechanic is helps the players to survive more than in D&D. Level one characters in the latter have a bigger mortality rate than the starting characters in Warhammer.
So I'm not really sure what to think about this, because it seems that some of those are quite valid with regard to the second edition. My question would then be - are we idealizing Warhammer and seeing it for something it isn't, but something that players "decided" to make of it? Because if it is so indeed, it seems that my "holy rage" is directed at a product that is, ironically, not that different from the one I like...
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Frank Eisenhauer
Other-Asia
Astana, Kazakhstan
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Hm, I wonder wether I can combine WFRP 3rd Ed. with Warhammer Quest and make it WQ the "Über-Dungeoncrawl".
IMHO it depends on the GM and the PC's how gritty WFRP is. I like the setting a lot (because of the gritty feel) and own quite a bit of the 1st and 2nd Ed. publications as well as Advanced HeroQuest and WQ. So I am very curious about the new edition.
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Jim Patching
United Kingdom
Cardiff
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Styfen wrote: chaosjenkins wrote: 1.) Tone will always be the primary responsibility of the game master and the group playing the game Absolutely, the group I'm running the classic horror adventure 'Horror on the Orient Express' keep turning it into a debacle, while a little comedy is OK to lighten the mood it's really annoying when it's inappropriately used. Moody and tense moments have been repeatedly ruined by one or two of them goofing about and cracking wall breaking jokes - as such several of the scenarios have turned into disappointing skits. Needless to say I shan't be GMing Call of Cthulhu with them again, they're not the right fit for the genre (and if I'm honest it's kind of bummed me out a bit because I love running proper horror.)
Whilst the players go a long way to determining the tone of a game, the presentation of the game and the design of it still have a large part to play. In the case of Horror on the Orient Express there are some definite 'Benny Hill' moments in it (being chased by a horde of killer chickens, opening the door of your railway carriage and without warning being confronted with a tiger that kills you). Infact, the lethality of that particular campaign and the frequency of character death make it quite difficult to take it very seriously.
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Old Scratch
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
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There has been a lot of discussion and a lot of rumors.
There were seminars at Gencon discussing this game.
1) It is an rpg. It is not a boardgame. Repeat, it is not a boardgame. It is an rpg which uses card aids to minimize referencing the book.
2) For the assertions about merging it closer to the wargame, this is apparently not true either, as they are turning the clock back to before the Storm of Chaos.
3) There will be ratcatchers and the like. The base game comes with 30 or 40 careers and the adventurer's toolkit comes with another 10.
There is a lot of misinformation. So let's not get all riled up before we even here what the game is about.
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Old Scratch
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
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jgerman wrote:
1. It's not that clear cut. It's more of a board game with RP elements mixed in. It's not pure roleplay by any means.
It has been playtested. The designer and others have attested that it is an rpg. Yes, it is an rpg. Is it an rpg that uses unorthodox components, yes. Is it a boardgame? No.
An rpg can use things other than just dice and character sheets. Because it has some parallels and similarities in components to other things does not make it a boardgame.
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Frank Eisenhauer
Other-Asia
Astana, Kazakhstan
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With that definition every RPG that player use miniatures and "maps" (or tiles, or mats you can draw on), as well as hnadouts, gimmicks (i.e. coins), selfmade equipment cards and so on, can be considered a board game. That seems a bit extreme. The other end of the scale is a board game like HeroQuest that many of us played like a RPG (in many cases our first foray into RPG's). I am not even going to start discussing D&D 4 Ed.
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Old Scratch
United States
Unspecified
Unspecified
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jgerman wrote:
I don't give a rats ass what they say lol. That's marketing. I was there. I've talked directly to the designers, I've seen what's in the box and I know a fair amount about how the game is played.
It's a hybrid. There are playing pieces, there are player mats. There are chits. It is highly HIGHLY structured. All qualities of a board game. Just because it has qualities of an RPG doesn't make it a board game, or the other way around. WHFRP is a hybrid.
I completely disagree. Just because a game has other components does not mean that it is a "board game". Hell, it doesn't even have a board!
Just because the game shares some components similar to board games and card games does not make it a board game. Hell, many rpgs use mats and miniatures and this doesn't make them board games. I've seen laminated "player mats" for rpgs. I've seen custom dice for games. All of these were rpgs.
You're looking at the surface appearance. All you have to ask yourself is this: Are the players adopting the roles of characters in a game to collaboratively share and create a story that emerges through their decision making and play? And the answer is yes. That's what makes a game an rpg or not. Not whether or not it has chits.
By your definition, D&D is not an rpg.
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Bossko B.
England
Brierley Hill
The Black Country
2012. BE HAPPY!
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Quote: "There are more than 30 custom dice included to help you craft your story."
This is my one big concern. Considering the topic of another thread I created about RPGers not sharing dice, and RPG companies know this. And at $99 for the set, it's not going to happen in my group that's for sure.
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