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Chris Birch
United Kingdom
London
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I love love the idea of cards being introduced in to an RPG but I'm not so sure about the numberous counters discussed in reviews
Is this a game err I mean an RPG with counter overload? Do the counters just add a ton off fiddly bits to up the box contents count or does it truly help the game?
I'm not a big fan of the massed piles of cards and counters surrounding a FFG boardgame tell me your thoughts fellow rpg'ers!
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Josh Bazin
Canada
Edmonton
Alberta
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I haven't played my copy yet, but from what I've seen and read, the counters seem to be helpful and reasonable addition to the game.
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Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
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I use dice to count down recharge rather than mess with counters.
So you don't necessarily have to use the counters to count recharge.
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Chris Birch
United Kingdom
London
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is recharge one of the regular counter uses?
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omnicrondelicious
United States
San Francisco
California
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Caveat: I've only run maybe a dozen sessions of WFRP3. Within my limited experience, I haven't felt the cards and counters to be overly fiddly, but there is some fiddliness. It accomplishes what it sets out to do - namely, take a mechanically-rich system and make it playable with handy-dandy references, and solve simultaneously for the recharge and countdown tracking problems.
If you've played older versions of D&D with all the fiddly "3 attacks every 2 rounds" and variable spell durations and whatnot, you'll find this system to be more elegant. It simply replaces the tallymarks of yore with counters (or dice, if you prefer) and a standardized rules framework.
The components are NOT essential (though I think they're really useful). If you prefer to go old school style with everything written on paper, and using tallymarks or whatnot, FFG has released the core rules in a component-free format as well. Take your pick between the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Core Set (with components) and the Game Master's Guide + Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay: Player's Guide (without components).
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Maurice Tousignant
Canada
Windsor
Ontario
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Yes and no.
For some things I find them awesome and excellent. Tracking cool down on powers (yes counters are used for these), fate points, marking ranges, initiative and using the various Trackers all work a charm.
What I have had a problem with as a DM is using them for wounds on bad guys and for using them for the Expertise Cunning and third monster stat I can't remember. I even tried using the pre-set slots on the DM screen to track it but find I knock into the counters or the screen. I've found tracking both wounds and point pools to be easier on paper.
I actually have more of a problem with all of the cards. In play they work pretty well and often save time from having to look things up. It's between play when people are spending advances that it's a pain. I would much rather have my players look through a list of feats, rather then flip through 200 talent cards. The powers are worse as the players have to flip them all over and read them twice. Once everything is chosen and you are playing the cards work great. Due to this I've bought the new books and have my players pick stuff from the books and then give them the appropriate cards after the fact.
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Andy Leighton
England
Peterborough
Unspecified
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JoystickJunkies wrote: is recharge one of the regular counter uses?
Recharge / power cooldown or whatever you want to call it.
If you use some cards, you have to put 4 counters on it. At the end of every round (including this one) you remove a counter. In a combat you might have 3 or more cards with counters on.
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SJ Benoist
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
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As mentioned, they basically serve two functions:
1. Eliminate the "scratch pad" notes.
2. Eliminate character ability rulebook references.
They are not so bad if you use the boxes provided (or something similar) to keep everything a particular character needs together, cutting down setup time.
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Chris Birch
United Kingdom
London
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andyl wrote: JoystickJunkies wrote: is recharge one of the regular counter uses? In a combat you might have 3 or more cards with counters on.
This sounds messy though, i love using cards but numerous counters feels like more trouble than it's worth?
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Maurice Tousignant
Canada
Windsor
Ontario
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You need some way to track when you can use a card again. If you aren't using counters then you will need something else. As noted by someone else, dice work well. The counters work. Otherwise you would need a scratch paper with every power and would be constantly writing and erasing to keep track of what's been used and what hasn't.
It isn't like say 4e D&D where you can use these things once an encounter or once a day where you would just tap or flip over the card. These powers have recharge times from 2-4 rounds on average. In addition there are many ways to recharge quicker (all of which are worded to say remove a counter).
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Jim Patching
United Kingdom
Cardiff
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I think WFRP 3 suffers from component overload full stop.
I actually like the game and it's got some brilliant ideas in it. I've played in one campaign as a player and really like the system but after playing that game I sold all my WFRP 3 stuff as I didn't think it was a game I was ever going to run.
As a GM I like to have a pretty good grasp as to what's going on, what everyone can do and the general rules of the game. The game I played in had masses of cards and counters strewn across the main table, side tables and assorted chairs. The thought of trying to get my head round all that stuff just turned me off it. To a certain extent, the fact that all the info is on cards means you don't have to get your head around it all, but as a GM that's just not the way I roll.
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Simon Crowe
United Kingdom
Sheffield
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We had the problem of playing a weekly game that last only a couple of hours. The counters make set-up and pack away times really drag out, and almost impossible to pause mid-combat. People end up recording their counters for fatigue and stress on paper, which starts defying the point. Plus for a disorganised GM like me I always spent ages rooting around the counters I needed mid-game. Plus we weren't using a particularly large table so it got quite messy. All in all it went poorly.
With a separate group I played a longer game, lasting a few hours more and with a larger surface area, and it went swimmingly. The counters really helped at a glance to see what was going on. It's a weird contrast.
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SJ Benoist
United States
Saint Charles
Missouri
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I use a Plano box to sort the counters, it makes grabbing the component you need and putting things away very quick & easy for the GM.
For the players, they can just shove everything in their box. Should take ~30 seconds. Next session, player setup takes about ~1 minute (dump out the box, arrange the parts).
Edit: I do wish they had included a 4th box with The Adventurer's Toolkit
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Chris Birch
United Kingdom
London
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Well folks despite my issues I picked up a new copy cheap just now on ebay, to hell with it I'll just burn the counters during winter time if they get my rag up!
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Aaron Brown
United States
Northglenn
Colorado
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I run WFRP 3rd for a small group, and we've all commented on how easy it is to get hung up on using the "correct" bits, but the game plays so brilliantly (using tracks to manage chases and other time-sensitive events or milestones is really cool) we don't let it slow things down.
We have a player that ignores all but the basic action cards and uses stat blocks on a character sheet vs cards and tokens, while another player keeps her character cards and tokens neatly arranged in her tuck-box.
The point is, use what works for you and enjoy the excellent game that is 3rd edition!
:laugh:
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Chris Birch
United Kingdom
London
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SJBenoist wrote:
Isn't the actual adventurers toolkit box the same size as the other 3 players boxes?
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Adrian George
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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No, it's significantly larger, although I think they did intend for it to be the fourth box, because it's one of the few supplementary products that comes in a usable box.
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Hans Messersmith
Canada
Hamilton
Ontario
Freder: It was their hands that built this city of ours, Father. But where do the hands belong in your scheme?
Joh Frederson: In their proper place, the depths.
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In the eight sessions or so I have played, I've found using the counters (and all the other artifacts of the game) generally to be superior to pencil and paper. I enjoy all the shiny things the game provides, and think most of it is pretty well thought out.
That being said, I wasn't the one who actually forked over the bucks to buy all the paraphenalia; our GM did that. If I actually had to pay the price tag, I'd choose pencil and paper. They are cool, but not $50 (or however much the premium of the full game versus the Players Guide is) cool.
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Chris Birch
United Kingdom
London
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ah i picked that up in a bundle, i shall let the players fight over that box then!!
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j h
United States
Lakewood
www.hafnerchiropractic.com
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Some of my players use them. Some use a scratch pad.
The crucial thing is to make sure that whatever you use, that it's efficient and doesn't slow your game down.
jh
* There's nothing worse than slow play in Golf and RPGs
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William Hostman
United States
Eagle River
Alaska
Gaming in Greater Anchorage area, Alaska since 1978. Looking for Indy-willing RPG players in Eagle River (or willing to drive to Eagle River). Geekmail me if interested.
Yes, this really is what I looked like when I uploaded that avatar. Not that it's quite current anymore.
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SJBenoist wrote:
Quart ziplocks work beautifully.
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Jim C
United Kingdom
Tonbridge
Kent
Rails, what rails?
To boldly go where no meeple has gone before...
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If you start picking up the various expansions, you might start to feel overloaded witht he number of different types of counter (I think it's well over 16 now). Fortunately, many of these are just differently themed generic status counters, the game itself can run pefectly well on ~5, and without too much thought on only 1. They are pretty though.
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