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Subject: GLAIR 2018 Nominations Now Open Through 2 November! rss

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M. B. Downey
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sos1 wrote:
Personally I'd like to see nominations limited to games first published (which might mean online) at least ten years earlier than the year of nomination. This would give some heft to the word "lifetime".


I purposefully did not include a time requirement for this year, since we didn't have one before. I think that is worth discussing though!
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Poll: GLAIR Age Requirements
1. Should GLAIR only be open to games published for a minimum number of years?
No
Yes
Yes but not this year
2. What should the minimum number of years since publication be?
1
5
10
15
20
Something else
      25 answers
Poll created by downeymb
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M. B. Downey
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All dates would be based off the year for the item's entry in the database.
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ctimmins wrote:
Comparing the date of publication to the date of GLAIR shows a few interesting things.

The "oldest" game that won was D&D (hard to get older than that), at 36 years old at win.
The "youngest" game that won was Classic WoD, at 20 years old at win. However, there's been a trend to "newer" games (late 1970s to mid 1980s) in the life of the award.

The average age at win is 28.9 years old. So, I predict this year's winner will be published 1989/1990 or before. Probably from the 1970's list below -

Arduin
Boot Hill
Bunnies & Burrows
Bushido
Chivalry & Sorcery
Empire of the Petal Throne
En Garde!
Gamma World
Metamorphosis Alpha
Star Trek: Adventure Gaming in the Final Frontier
Starfaring
Starships & Spacemen
The Complete Warlock
The Infinity System
Tunnels & Trolls
Villains & Vigilantes
What Price Glory?!
Ysgarth

But, there's no accounting for pop culture


Please note that I am not considering these as nominations until they've been nominated.
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Previous nomination, formally (re-)nominated:

Realms of the Unknown
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sos1 wrote:
Personally I'd like to see nominations limited to games first published (which might mean online) at least ten years earlier than the year of nomination. This would give some heft to the word "lifetime".
I'm within Steffan on this. To get more specific, I would say any RPG entry or RPG Family entry (per the RPGGeek data structure, I think your poll accidentally mislabels RPGs) where the earliest core rulebook RPG item in the database was published more than ten years before the start of the contest nominations. In this case that would mean before October 23, 2008.
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downeymb wrote:
Please note that I am not considering these as nominations until they've been nominated.

Well then, it would be my great honor to nominate Bunnies & Burrows for this prestigious award.
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Mease19 wrote:
downeymb wrote:
Please note that I am not considering these as nominations until they've been nominated.

Well then, it would be my great honor to nominate Bunnies & Burrows for this prestigious award.


Already nominated, see the list on the first page!

sos1 wrote:
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skalchemist wrote:
sos1 wrote:
Personally I'd like to see nominations limited to games first published (which might mean online) at least ten years earlier than the year of nomination. This would give some heft to the word "lifetime".
I'm within Steffan on this. To get more specific, I would say any RPG entry or RPG Family entry (per the RPGGeek data structure, I think your poll accidentally mislabels RPGs) where the earliest core rulebook RPG item in the database was published more than ten years before the start of the contest nominations. In this case that would mean before October 23, 2008.


Yes, my intention was to differentiate "anything that can be found under 'RPG' in the database" into multiple things, and used "family" in the context of the [family=xxxxx][/family] tags, which is what usually comes up when entering RPG. Mostly I wanted to ask:

"should D&D5E/4E/3.5/3.0/AD&D2E/AD&D/etc. be eligible for GLAIR even though 'D&D' is already in?"
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downeymb wrote:
skalchemist wrote:
sos1 wrote:
Personally I'd like to see nominations limited to games first published (which might mean online) at least ten years earlier than the year of nomination. This would give some heft to the word "lifetime".
I'm within Steffan on this. To get more specific, I would say any RPG entry or RPG Family entry (per the RPGGeek data structure, I think your poll accidentally mislabels RPGs) where the earliest core rulebook RPG item in the database was published more than ten years before the start of the contest nominations. In this case that would mean before October 23, 2008.


Yes, my intention was to differentiate "anything that can be found under 'RPG' in the database" into multiple things, and used "family" in the context of the [family=xxxxx][/family] tags, which is what usually comes up when entering RPG. Mostly I wanted to ask:

"should D&D5E/4E/3.5/3.0/AD&D2E/AD&D/etc. be eligible for GLAIR even though 'D&D' is already in?"
My suggestion is that any game that has a family level should be nominated at that level. This seems to already be the case: all of the currently listed award holders except for Fudge are family entries. But it does get weird, and its hard to make a blanket rule, I think, because of the various ways things are in the database.

Fate, is an illustrative example. The family level, Fate, includes the RPG Fate 1.0/2.0, whose core rules were published 2003. It includes Spirit of the Century (2006), arguably the breakthrough for the game which led to so many other versions, and Fate Core. But it also includes a vast swath of other games that arguably someone might think could be nominated separately, such as The Dresden Files Roleplaying Game, Diaspora, Starblazer Adventures. To my mind, I think the family level is still appropriate, but that would mean that those individual games would never get separate nominations. I'm ok with that, but I can see it both ways.

On the other hand, Apocalypse World has no higher family level. All of the "Powered by the Apocalypse" games are actually associated with the system entry Powered by the Apocalypse. To my mind, this is appropriate. I think there are games under the AWE system that probably should be someday eligible for separate nomination, e.g. Dungeon World, Masks: A New Generation, so again, I am ok with this. But I admit it is not obvious exactly how the Apocalypse World case differs from the Fate case. Its more a judgement call then something that you could write a rule about.

EDIT: It conceivably means that in the future a game that was originally nominated at the RPG level might need to be upgraded to the family level in the award listing. For example, if Apocalypse World were to win the award, and then at some point in the future a new version were published that was different enough to get a new RPG entry (based on the same logic that leads to different RPG entries for D&D 3.0, 4.0, 5.0, etc.) then there would be a new Apocalypse World family created, and really that family should be the holder of the award.

EDIT2: Clark points about below the examples where things have been added to a family AFTER the award. His post nearly convinces me the award should be mostly considered at the RPG level, not family level. Nearly, but not quite.
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The way awards are set up in the database allows "honors" to be assigned only at these levels:

RPG (this is where all GLAIR, to date, have actually been assigned)
RPG Item
RPG Designer
RPG Artist
RPG Publisher

GLAIR awards have always (to date) been technically awarded at the RPG Family level. This is somewhat problematical, because the system doesn't support an honor at a family level. However, it's pretty easy to split the award over all the RPGs in the family. Usually.

For the 2010 award, there are some complications - Call of Cthulhu 7 and D&D 5e both were published after the 2010 award. So even though the award was for CoC and D&D, these two editions are not so honored.

For the 2011 award, the "Classic World of Darkness" family contains several RPGs that are not honored with the GLAIR, because... uh... for reasons. You can review what is / is not included by looking at the award for the year.

And there are other situations - when the family includes RPGs that are fan-created, the fan-created stuff is not honored.

To start, see

GLAIR

ALBEIT, I don't think the award should be forced to conform to the database structure/implementation. However it is awarded, we'll manage our best to get it noted.

Comments:
If anybody thinks something has been overlooked in the assignments, or
If anybody thinks something is honored that wasn't supposed to be, or
If anybody wants to come up with a spiffy graphic for the GLAIR, then
please let me know!

Also, somebody needs to do the write-up for the 2015 wiki entry (RuneQuest).
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skalchemist wrote:
I'm within Steffan on this.

You've been watching too many spooky Halloween movies lately
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ctimmins wrote:
skalchemist wrote:
I'm within Steffan on this.

You've been watching too many spooky Halloween movies lately


I don't really know you, Steffan, but...
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The other point was to see if a supplement like T1-4: The Temple of Elemental Evil is eligible for GLAIR. (no one suggested that, just using something that's been rereleased a bunch of times).
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downeymb wrote:
E Decker wrote:
DSA needs to be on the list of nominees.


So nominate it.

Did.
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E Decker wrote:
downeymb wrote:
E Decker wrote:
DSA needs to be on the list of nominees.


So nominate it.

Did.


Please follow the nomination instructions so I know exactly what entry you are nominating, thank you.

Nomination Instructions wrote:
Simply make a post nominating any game that you think is deserving (including a link to its RPGG entry).
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skalchemist wrote:
downeymb wrote:
skalchemist wrote:
sos1 wrote:
Personally I'd like to see nominations limited to games first published (which might mean online) at least ten years earlier than the year of nomination. This would give some heft to the word "lifetime".
I'm within Steffan on this. To get more specific, I would say any RPG entry or RPG Family entry (per the RPGGeek data structure, I think your poll accidentally mislabels RPGs) where the earliest core rulebook RPG item in the database was published more than ten years before the start of the contest nominations. In this case that would mean before October 23, 2008.


Yes, my intention was to differentiate "anything that can be found under 'RPG' in the database" into multiple things, and used "family" in the context of the [family=xxxxx][/family] tags, which is what usually comes up when entering RPG. Mostly I wanted to ask:

"should D&D5E/4E/3.5/3.0/AD&D2E/AD&D/etc. be eligible for GLAIR even though 'D&D' is already in?"
My suggestion is that any game that has a family level should be nominated at that level. This seems to already be the case: all of the currently listed award holders except for Fudge are family entries. But it does get weird, and its hard to make a blanket rule, I think, because of the various ways things are in the database.

Fate, is an illustrative example. The family level, Fate, includes the RPG Fate 1.0/2.0, whose core rules were published 2003. It includes Spirit of the Century (2006), arguably the breakthrough for the game which led to so many other versions, and Fate Core. But it also includes a vast swath of other games that arguably someone might think could be nominated separately, such as The Dresden Files Roleplaying Game, Diaspora, Starblazer Adventures. To my mind, I think the family level is still appropriate, but that would mean that those individual games would never get separate nominations. I'm ok with that, but I can see it both ways.

On the other hand, Apocalypse World has no higher family level. All of the "Powered by the Apocalypse" games are actually associated with the system entry Powered by the Apocalypse. To my mind, this is appropriate. I think there are games under the AWE system that probably should be someday eligible for separate nomination, e.g. Dungeon World, Masks: A New Generation, so again, I am ok with this. But I admit it is not obvious exactly how the Apocalypse World case differs from the Fate case. Its more a judgement call then something that you could write a rule about.


Yep I would agree with this. Deadlands: Reloaded is part of the Deadlands family - which includes the original version, the D20 version, and the Savage Worlds (Reloaded) version.

On the other hand there isn't a "Savage Worlds" family as such. There are 3 families attached to it but those are particular lines of games such as Suzerain and Weird Wars.

I think that there are always going to have to be judgement calls about what grouping is sensible, and that at times there will need to be explanatory text.
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I would prefer things as close to "Family" as they get, and after that, "System". That is, I would not want to see each edition of D&D win a GLAIR - just one to cover them all. Same with other popular systems that have been through multiple editions, or different individual games using the same System.
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downeymb wrote:
The other point was to see if a supplement like T1-4: The Temple of Elemental Evil is eligible for GLAIR. (no one suggested that, just using something that's been rereleased a bunch of times).


I actually asked that question to downeymb. I was specifically thinking of nominating Harlem Unbound.
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Can I nominate Villains & Vigilantes?
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Omega2048 wrote:
Can I nominate Villains & Vigilantes?


It’s already been nominated, but sure!
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sos1 wrote:
I would prefer things as close to "Family" as they get, and after that, "System". That is, I would not want to see each edition of D&D win a GLAIR - just one to cover them all. Same with other popular systems that have been through multiple editions, or different individual games using the same System.


Yes, this. It makes sense in terms of thinking about lifetime achievement (many RPGs go through several editions in their lifetime, creating a Family), and in terms of the precedent set by previous GLAIR winners.
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MonsterMike wrote:
sos1 wrote:
I would prefer things as close to "Family" as they get, and after that, "System". That is, I would not want to see each edition of D&D win a GLAIR - just one to cover them all. Same with other popular systems that have been through multiple editions, or different individual games using the same System.


Yes, this. It makes sense in terms of thinking about lifetime achievement (many RPGs go through several editions in their lifetime, creating a Family), and in terms of the precedent set by previous GLAIR winners.


Currently this seems to be winning the poll.

Also: minimum of ten years starting this year.

But both polls are open through next Friday 2 November! Vote vote vote (both in this poll and in any civic elections)!
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If we go with ten years, these are the nominated games that are not eligible and when they would become eligible:

Lamentations of the Flame Princess (2019)
Apocalypse World (2020)
Star Wars: Edge of the Empire (2022)
The Tragedy of GJ 237b (2027)
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If we go with ten years, these are the nominated games that are not eligible but would be if they were nominated at a higher family level

The Burning Wheel Gold (2021) but eligible now if nominated as Burning Wheel
Robert E. Howard's Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed Of (2026) but eligible now if nominated as Conan

The former makes sense to me to be nominated at the higher level, but I don't know enough about the latter to know if that family is similar enough or if that would be like saying "all Star Wars games are the same" or "all Lovecraft games are the same".
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