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Subject: [Interest Check] Pathfinder - The Witchwar Legacy (Level 17 module) rss

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Bob Smith
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Is anyone interested in trying a (very) high level Pathfinder PBF?

This has been sitting on my shelf for a few years now and I'm pretty interested to see how it actually plays. The general internet consensus seems to be high level PF is...problematic. Perhaps running by PBF could ameliorate some of the problems caused by unwieldy, multi page stat blocks? There seems to be only one way to find out.

The Witchwar Legacy wrote:
Entombed in the Ice

The witch queens of Irrisen must abdicate their thrones every 100 years when their mother, Baba Yaga, places a new daughter on the throne. But one queen was unwilling to relinquish her rule, and led a doomed rebellion against the Mother of Witches. Afterward, Baba Yaga entombed her wayward daughter in an icy necropolis known as the Veil of Frozen Tears, along with a powerful artifact called the Torc of Kostchtchie, hiding them both far from mortal eyes.

Now, almost 500 years later, the tomb has been found, and the race is on to plunder its treasures. Will the PCs follow Elvanna, the current queen of Irrisen, in her attempt to recover the Torc, or will they join forces with the demon lord Kostchtchie? What secrets does the Veil of Frozen Tears conceal? Can the PCs reclaim the lost artifact and keep it from those who also seek its power, or will they fall victim to the denizens of the tomb and end up as eternal guardians themselves?

The Witchwar Legacy is an adventure for 17th-level characters, written for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game and compatible with the 3.5 edition of the world's oldest RPG. The adventure features an icy necropolis frozen in time, cursed dragons, twisted giants, and the fell magics and devious riddles of the Queen of Witches herself! It also includes a description of the frost giant fortress of Holvirgang, and a new monster, the extraplanar scions of the titans called the Abyss gigas.

This adventure is set in the northern reaches of the wintry land of Irrisen in the Pathfinder campaign setting, but can be easily adapted for any game world.


This game is probably going to be more suitable for experienced players. If you are familiar with Pathfinder and are keen to test yourself at the upper tiers of play let me know in this thread. We can start an [OOC] and set about the arduous task of creating our superheroes and deciding how these legends came to be gathered in Whitethrone.







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Fred M
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Would we generate our own characters or are there pregens?
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Sounds intriguing.
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derf_red wrote:
Would we generate our own characters or are there pregens?


There are pre gens if you'd prefer. But, half the fun must be creating your own level 17 demigod, surely?


Edit: Pre gens: Seelah, Harsk, Merisiel, Seoni all at Level 17.
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I'm new to the boards, but if that's alright with you I would love to have the chance to play.

Did you have in mind any immediate restrictions on chargen regarding e.g. Unchained material and such? Or would that be something to pound out in the OOC thread?
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derf_red wrote:
Would we generate our own characters or are there pregens?
I don't know why, but I read that as "penguins". But then, I just returned from a holiday in Australia.

shake

I am equally intrigued, although I play mostly D&D (3.5e included).
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Fred M
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I would give it a try.
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I would be keen to give it a try as well.

I would suggest you (and this is only a suggestion) limit player's powers that interrupt another player's (or the enemy's) turn.

The "X per day you may grant an ally a reroll, after seeing the dice roll but before knowing the result" can grind Pathfinder down, and at higher level you accumulate more of them.
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Some people handle this problem by letting the player who grants the re-roll do the dice roll to speed things up.
PF is more complicated in this regard than 5e though, as the wording often is „you have to take the second result, even if it‘s worse.“
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derf_red wrote:
Some people handle this problem by letting the player who grants the re-roll do the dice roll to speed things up.
PF is more complicated in this regard than 5e though, as the wording often is „you have to take the second result, even if it‘s worse.“


The Pathfinder Design's teams predilection for the nonsense that is their rerolls is (in my opinion) one of their worst design choices. The abilities slow the game down at the table (let aloe PBF).

You do mitigate it by opening up the pool for the active player to select from.
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In low level PFS my experience with this is the misfortune revelation of the dual cursed oracle. As a default I told the other players, that they could/should use the ability by my character if they rolled a natural 1 on a save or attack roll (it cannot get any worse).
For the gm the default was to re-roll any natural 20 for an npc.
I‘m aware that this was a bit of a stretch already, but it did work pretty well, mist of the time.
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derf_red wrote:
In low level PFS my experience with this is the misfortune revelation of the dual cursed oracle. As a default I told the other players, that they could/should use the ability by my character if they rolled a natural 1 on a save or attack roll (it cannot get any worse).
For the gm the default was to re-roll any natural 20 for an npc.
I‘m aware that this was a bit of a stretch already, but it did work pretty well, mist of the time.


I finished running Council of Thieves with an oracle with that revelation. Aggressively good. As there were only a few encounters per day, any 18+ roll for an opponent was usually the target of a reroll. The player had figured out that most enemies only lived a few rounds and had made a very optimal decision.

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I'm in.

With or without the penguins.



I have no objections to dual cursed oracles (who rock) but may withdraw if the entire party must comprise of a council of thieves

Actually an entire party of dual cursed oracles would be quite interesting. Can you imagine?
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I'm not playing a penguin, although most certainly I could spell something like that up in IC.

I'll love to be in, because superhero games are rare (thank you, Bob, for offering to run this) and because I get to play with someone as a player not GM and someone else with whom I haven't played a game with in a long time. And I should have no problems generating a PC up with Hero Lab or even from scratch.
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Apologies everybody, I meant to keep more on top of this thread than I did. Work was not as quiet as I had been anticipating.

Thanks for everyone's interest. We seem slightly oversubscribed, but only slightly. I'm sure something can be worked out, but it'll have to wait for the morning.


jodokast wrote:

I would suggest you (and this is only a suggestion) limit player's powers that interrupt another player's (or the enemy's) turn.


This seems like good advice. Thank you, it is appreciated. I am certainly not the most experienced high level GM and welcome everybody's input.
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I love high level PF and would be interested.

What kind of time commitment are we looking at though? I probably couldn't commit to more than once / day. I know that can mean things go pretty slow, but I'm also keen on optimizing play for PbF and am open to doing whatever it takes to make that once / day count.
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Okay, so we seem to have 6 or 7 potential players, which is great. Thanks so much for your interest thumbsup

However, this module is designed for a team of four. I *think* by stacking templates, adding class levels/combatants etc. I may be able to tweak it to be appropriate for 6 players.

However, that brings me to the second issue, which is character optimisation. I'd prefer if players didn't optimise their characters too ruthlessly. Rereading this module last night, the enemies are not optimised. The pregens are not optimised. If everyone goes hellbent for power, you're going to stomp through this game or require me to heavily alter more and more content. Of course, I want players to bring effective characters to the game that they enjoy, but I don't want every player to feel obliged to optimise their character to the nth degree to keep up with the party. And with, potentially, a team of 6, there's only so far I can tweak these encounters before having to basically rewrite them wholesale. I'd prefer not to have to do that. I figure you're going to have 17 class levels to play with - you're going to be plenty powerful as is. So, I politely request that optimisation is kept to reasonable levels.

With that in mind, for Character Creation I'm thinking about something like:

120 Point Buy

2Max first HP, high average thereafter.

3Core races only (Except by request. Anthropomorphised animals frowned upon.)

4Item Creation feats not encouraged. WBL is already going to be absurdly high (17th level: 410,000gp.) I'd rather not see that effectively doubled.

5No gunslingers. No occult classes. If you must play a summoner, Unchained Summoner only. Gunslingers are not my flavour for Irrisen. Occult classes I am just not familiar enough with and do not wish to have to learn at this point. APG Summoner just left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't like the unchained one much more. I think it's that stupid gnome iconic with his ridiculous purple hat.

6I think I'd like certain spells to be removed. Specifically, at present, I'm thinking of Astral Projection. I don't want the party projecting their way through the entire module while their material bodies remain safely ensconced on an unreachable demiplane.

How does this sound for everyone? I don't want to spoil anyone's fun and am open to discussion on these points.

What are everybody's character ideas? I'd prefer a fairly varied party (not 4-6 dual cursed oracles, if possible) and it might be useful in determining final party make up.


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Kanaboshi wrote:
Okay, so we seem to have 6 or 7 potential players, which is great. Thanks so much for your interest thumbsup

However, this module is designed for a team of four. I *think* by stacking templates, adding class levels/combatants etc. I may be able to tweak it to be appropriate for 6 players.

However, that brings me to the second issue, which is character optimisation. I'd prefer if players didn't optimise their characters too ruthlessly. Rereading this module last night, the enemies are not optimised. The pregens are not optimised. If everyone goes hellbent for power, you're going to stomp through this game or require me to heavily alter more and more content. Of course, I want players to bring effective characters to the game that they enjoy, but I don't want every player to feel obliged to optimise their character to the nth degree to keep up with the party. And with, potentially, a team of 6, there's only so far I can tweak these encounters before having to basically rewrite them wholesale. I'd prefer not to have to do that. I figure you're going to have 17 class levels to play with - you're going to be plenty powerful as is. So, I politely request that optimisation is kept to reasonable levels.

With that in mind, for Character Creation I'm thinking about something like:

120 Point Buy

2Max first HP, high average thereafter.

3Core races only (Except by request. Anthropomorphised animals frowned upon.)

4Item Creation feats not encouraged. WBL is already going to be absurdly high (17th level: 410,000gp.) I'd rather not see that effectively doubled.

5No gunslingers. No occult classes. If you must play a summoner, Unchained Summoner only. Gunslingers are not my flavour for Irrisen. Occult classes I am just not familiar enough with and do not wish to have to learn at this point. APG Summoner just left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't like the unchained one much more. I think it's that stupid gnome iconic with his ridiculous purple hat.

6I think I'd like certain spells to be removed. Specifically, at present, I'm thinking of Astral Projection. I don't want the party projecting their way through the entire module while their material bodies remain safely ensconced on an unreachable demiplane.

How does this sound for everyone? I don't want to spoil anyone's fun and am open to discussion on these points.

What are everybody's character ideas? I'd prefer a fairly varied party (not 4-6 dual cursed oracles, if possible) and it might be useful in determining final party make up.





I'm usually human, if there are some martials I'll play a Bard. If there aren't I'm keen to play a martial, specifically a Viking archtype. So I can swing my axe and yell at things. Loudly

Also did you want to use anything else from unchained? I'm a big fan of background skills but I'm wanting to play a 2+int character class.
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jodokast wrote:



I'm usually human, if there are some martials I'll play a Bard. If there aren't I'm keen to play a martial, specifically a Viking archtype. So I can swing my axe and yell at things. Loudly

Also did you want to use anything else from unchained? I'm a big fan of background skills but I'm wanting to play a 2+int character class.


Yes, good point. Background skills are great. Let's use those thumbsup
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And because my mind is going places-
Can we take weapon tricks from Weapon Master's Handbook?

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jodokast wrote:
And because my mind is going places-
Can we take weapon tricks from Weapon Master's Handbook?


Sure, they look cool.
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All of that is cool with me, Kanaboshi. As for what class to play, I'm versatile, I'm down with whatever. Jodokast, if you're keen on picking up a martial, I can definitely fill in the bard role, or even a skald depending on the composition of martial and casters in the party. Otherwise, I'm most used to playing a rogue, though in that case I would like to use the Unchained class. But, like I said, I'm down for anything.
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Ragbag wrote:
All of that is cool with me, Kanaboshi. As for what class to play, I'm versatile, I'm down with whatever. Jodokast, if you're keen on picking up a martial, I can definitely fill in the bard role, or even a skald depending on the composition of martial and casters in the party. Otherwise, I'm most used to playing a rogue, though in that case I would like to use the Unchained class. But, like I said, I'm down for anything.


I'm certainly keen to be a martial this time.
But if there are a couple of others who prefer swinging weapons I'm also always happy to play a traditional bard.
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Kanaboshi wrote:
Okay, so we seem to have 6 or 7 potential players, which is great. Thanks so much for your interest thumbsup

However, this module is designed for a team of four. I *think* by stacking templates, adding class levels/combatants etc. I may be able to tweak it to be appropriate for 6 players.

However, that brings me to the second issue, which is character optimisation. I'd prefer if players didn't optimise their characters too ruthlessly. Rereading this module last night, the enemies are not optimised. The pregens are not optimised. If everyone goes hellbent for power, you're going to stomp through this game or require me to heavily alter more and more content. Of course, I want players to bring effective characters to the game that they enjoy, but I don't want every player to feel obliged to optimise their character to the nth degree to keep up with the party. And with, potentially, a team of 6, there's only so far I can tweak these encounters before having to basically rewrite them wholesale. I'd prefer not to have to do that. I figure you're going to have 17 class levels to play with - you're going to be plenty powerful as is. So, I politely request that optimisation is kept to reasonable levels.

With that in mind, for Character Creation I'm thinking about something like:

120 Point Buy

2Max first HP, high average thereafter.

3Core races only (Except by request. Anthropomorphised animals frowned upon.)

4Item Creation feats not encouraged. WBL is already going to be absurdly high (17th level: 410,000gp.) I'd rather not see that effectively doubled.

5No gunslingers. No occult classes. If you must play a summoner, Unchained Summoner only. Gunslingers are not my flavour for Irrisen. Occult classes I am just not familiar enough with and do not wish to have to learn at this point. APG Summoner just left a bad taste in my mouth. I don't like the unchained one much more. I think it's that stupid gnome iconic with his ridiculous purple hat.

6I think I'd like certain spells to be removed. Specifically, at present, I'm thinking of Astral Projection. I don't want the party projecting their way through the entire module while their material bodies remain safely ensconced on an unreachable demiplane.

How does this sound for everyone? I don't want to spoil anyone's fun and am open to discussion on these points.

What are everybody's character ideas? I'd prefer a fairly varied party (not 4-6 dual cursed oracles, if possible) and it might be useful in determining final party make up.

All these sound really great actually.

I'm not a fan of optimising PCs either. In the tables I run/ran, I've asked players to consider not optimising (although I don't strictly enforce it), and I would be fine with a full party of wizards. In games I've played, I'd randomly chosen race/class before as well. I will do the same for race here, although I will go for a more select magic-user class as I would love to try any of these at high-level, so here is my final (lol) decision on what I'll be playing:

- Race = 1custom7{Dwarf;Elf;Gnome;Half-Elf;Half-Orc;Halfling;Human} -> ( Human) -> ( Human)
- Class = 1custom6{druid;sorcerer;wizard;magus;summoner;witch} -> ( druid) -> ( druid)

Fyi, my randomly chosen magic-user class comes from the core and base classes only. I'm skipping cleric only because I'm doing a 17th level 5e tempest cleric elsewhere.
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  • 1custom7{Dwarf;Elf;Gnome;Half-Elf;Half-Orc;Halfling;Human} =
  • ( Human) =
  • ( Human)
  • Race =
  • Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:21 am
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  • 1474329. taen
  • 1custom6{druid;sorcerer;wizard;magus;summoner;witch} =
  • ( druid) =
  • ( druid)
  • Class =
  • Thu Jun 13, 2019 3:22 am
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Ragbag wrote:
I can definitely fill in the bard role, or even a skald depending on the composition of martial and casters in the party. Otherwise, I'm most used to playing a rogue, though in that case I would like to use the Unchained class. But, like I said, I'm down for anything.


Interesting. I've never seen anyone play a skald. Totally down with you using Unchained rogue. The Unrogue is MVP in my face to face game ATM.

taen wrote:

- taen previously rolled 1custom7{Dwarf;Elf;Gnome;Half-Elf;Half-Orc;Halfling;Human} = ( Human) = ( Human) (Race =)
- taen previously rolled 1custom6{druid;sorcerer;wizard;magus;summoner;witch} = ( druid) = ( druid) (Class =)


Pretty relieved we dodged the Summoner bullet

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