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RPG» Forums » General Discussion » General Role-Playing

Subject: Is crunchy really role playing for you? rss

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Eric Jome
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I'm a storyteller. To me, I don't really want a very gamist system - I don't want thousands of pages of rules and tables and modifiers and charts... there's no game to be won in role playing and simulating some imaginary world under the illusion you are making it more "real" doesn't seem to have even a moment's appeal.

I look at the great films, the great works of literature - isn't that what we're all here for? They are story driven. Character driven. No one holds Super Mario up against the Iliad as a realistic comparison of quality - there's game for the little Italian plumber, but have you really accomplished anything, made a tale you'd want to tell when you rescue that Princess? And you, hunched over your rulebook for the last 6 hours tweaking your starship mass to weight ratio to see if you can get a few more meters per second out of it... that journey will never be Foundation in the telling, you know?

What is it you get out of a game with no story? Aren't you here to recreate in a new telling the feel of the epics and the sagas? Do you really need all those rules to pull that off? Slaying monsters for imaginary treasures... is that really rewarding when it comes with no soul? Optimizing the simulation is going to be great around the water cooler?

I don't understand you, gamer. Or you, simulater. I'll save why I think the storytellers are usually failing too for another thread; for now maybe I can pierce the veil of mystery around just these two with someone to defend their causes... care to take a swing at it?
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William Hostman
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Rules create the playspace.

When those rules fail to provide sensible results, the ability to drive the story with them is compromised. The threshold at which that is a problem varies widely.

I don't mind crunch. I dislike Hard Nova and Risus because they make no efforts to simulate... Neither, IMO, was worth the download time. Nothing to them, neither setting nor anything resembling a consistent tool.

Not to say that I think every session must be nothing but rules interface...

At the core, my grasp on what a character can/can't do is colored by the system.

The rules provide a contract; the agreed "reality" of the characters, a way of preventing the childhood "I hit you"/"No you didn't" of cops-n-robbers.

I don't play a book or a movie. I play a game, and that's a different thing.



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Alexander Bateman
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If all you want to do is tell a story, write a book. Its a much better medium for it.
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Alexander Bateman
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Halfjack wrote:
jadrax wrote:
If all you want to do is tell a story, write a book. Its a much better medium for it.


Don't you think there's a lot of excluded middle in this statement? Are things really Aftermath or writing a novel with no possibilities in between?
That is why I said if *all* you want to do is... I am arguing for the middle, not excluding it.
 
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Bryce Nakagawa
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cosine wrote:

What is it you get out of a game with no story? Aren't you here to recreate in a new telling the feel of the epics and the sagas? Do you really need all those rules to pull that off? Slaying monsters for imaginary treasures... is that really rewarding when it comes with no soul? Optimizing the simulation is going to be great around the water cooler?

What do I get out of a game with no story? A game. I can win or lose that. What do you get out of a story with no game?

Maybe I'm not here to recreate in a new telling the feel of the epics and the sagas. Maybe I'd rather let the professionals perform them for me because I'm not a talented actor or actress. Maybe I'd rather leave the wordsmithing to the people who get paid millions of dollars to do it because they are really, really good at it.

What satisfaction do you get out of slaying monsters when your success was dictated by some storyteller's whim? Is that really rewarding when it comes with no risk or skill?
cosine wrote:

I don't understand you, gamer. Or you, simulater. I'll save why I think the storytellers are usually failing too for another thread; for now maybe I can pierce the veil of mystery around just these two with someone to defend their causes... care to take a swing at it?

I completely understand you, storyteller. I just don't feel the need to spend countless hours around a gaming table waiting for you to tell your story. Write a book.

Why do gamers game? [Herm Edwards] You Play To Win The Game.[/Herm Edwards]
Why do simulationists play that way? Good question - maybe you should ask people why the Sims sell so well...
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Michael Tan
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cosine wrote:
I'm a storyteller. To me, I don't really want a very gamist system - I don't want thousands of pages of rules and tables and modifiers and charts... there's no game to be won in role playing and simulating some imaginary world under the illusion you are making it more "real" doesn't seem to have even a moment's appeal.

I look at the great films, the great works of literature - isn't that what we're all here for? They are story driven. Character driven. No one holds Super Mario up against the Iliad as a realistic comparison of quality - there's game for the little Italian plumber, but have you really accomplished anything, made a tale you'd want to tell when you rescue that Princess? And you, hunched over your rulebook for the last 6 hours tweaking your starship mass to weight ratio to see if you can get a few more meters per second out of it... that journey will never be Foundation in the telling, you know?

What is it you get out of a game with no story? Aren't you here to recreate in a new telling the feel of the epics and the sagas? Do you really need all those rules to pull that off? Slaying monsters for imaginary treasures... is that really rewarding when it comes with no soul? Optimizing the simulation is going to be great around the water cooler?

I don't understand you, gamer. Or you, simulater. I'll save why I think the storytellers are usually failing too for another thread; for now maybe I can pierce the veil of mystery around just these two with someone to defend their causes... care to take a swing at it?


I think you are making an assumption that RPGs are only about storytelling. The obvious difference between RPGs and literature is that the readers of the book help write the ending so to speak. The mechanic for this can be ojective (rules) or subjective (GM or player decision). I am a simulator and a fan of crunch but I don't believe those are mutually exclusive of storytelling. I HATE games that require players to lookup chart after chart during game play. To ME (not all) a well designed system has lots of "crunch" in the preparation phase - character creation for the players and world creation for the GM. Personally I really love to design games, worlds, characters so that can be a enjoyable solitaire exercise all by itself. If that's not your cup of tea, most games have plenty of ready-to-go materials as well. Once the real RPG session begins it should be quite minimalist. All the detail has already been fleshed out or is occuring in the background. I think there are several systems out there these days that approach that.

As for defending the cause - I think it is very simple. I play and design boardgames and wargames for the intellectual challenge and to win. Sometimes I play RPGs purely for the social interaction / storytelling aspect. Most of the time though, I enjoy some overlap. Afterall RPGs were invented by skirmish level wargamers. It's the "storyteller only" RPGers who are the Johnny come latelies...
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William Hostman
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Judge Death wrote:
Halfjack wrote:
Your description of crunch sounds more like what I do at work than what I do at play. I liked crunch fine until I read that.


So what's you description of crunch?


To me, "crunch" is detailed rules. Fluff is setting and exemplar story. Adventures are neither.

For example, BW is really crunchy. That crunch is very heavy on 4 areas: Character generation (half the core!), Duel of Wits, Fight, and Magic. There is almost no fluff.

Traveller has a lot of equipment crunch, especially starships. Some editions far more than others.

EABA is almost all crunch, no fluff.

GURPS 3R is Mostly crunch, but the included adventure isn't
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Judge Death wrote:
I believe that details make more things possible, they don't limit the players, they give them more to work with.

i wholeheartedly agree with this. and that reminds me: i need to get the jeepform games in the system, they are pretty much zero crunch (had to make this post relate to the OP) but the number one jeep truth is

Jeep Truths wrote:
1. Restrictions foster creativity.
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Halfjack wrote:
Your description of crunch sounds more like what I do at work than what I do at play.

engineer?
 
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cosine wrote:
No one holds Super Mario up against the Iliad as a realistic comparison of quality - there's game for the little Italian plumber
If that is the case, then for his influence on our culture thirty years and counting and the creation of a trillion-dollar industry, Mario has been done a disservice!

cosine wrote:
What is it you get out of a game with no story?
If you have no story at all about your game, you have done it terribly wrong. There is ALWAYS a story; there are always missions to be done, harrowing dramatic moments where the outcomes of both failure and success are on the line, the play of characters against their settings and circumstances.

That moment as you throw the die, where the twist in the story comes not down to whether the GM chooses to spend a plot point (or how edgy the director or writer feels like being, for that matter), but how this die lands now... In that moment, when you're simultaneously predicting success or failure and what you'll have to do in case of either... There is engagement in that.

In fact, there is a LOT of engagement in that. And thus, you have the 'gamist' school.

cosine wrote:
And you, hunched over your rulebook for the last 6 hours tweaking your starship mass to weight ratio to see if you can get a few more meters per second out of it... that journey will never be Foundation in the telling, you know?
No. But it's probably as fun as writing Foundation for six hours was, in the crafting.

It's one thing to fiat awesomeness; anyone can make up numbers and say their Foo is better than that Foo (just look at Rifts Ultimate Edition). It's another thing entirely to craft your own small slice of awesome out of rules other people agree to.

The longest I ever spent on character creation was four hours. That was a game I was well familiar with (Ironclaw). The result was very brief, and looked like this:

Isabelle Blackmore: Body d8, Speed d12, Will d8, Mind d4, Rhinoceros d6, Marine d10; Horn, Robustness +2, Strength +2, Sure-Footed; Agnostic, Barbarian, Heroic, Pacifist (Cannot Take A Life), Poor Sight; Acrobatics d8, Boating d6 (Favored Use: Sailed), Carousing d10, Dodge d8, Jumping d4, Language (Zhongguo) d8, Resolve d6+d10, Swimming d4 + d10, Sword 2d10; Butterfly-Landing-On-Iron-Pillar Kick, Sundering Blow

So why did I spend hours on that short a character sheet - if it only results in two lines of die codes, why didn't I just pound out a few die codes and be done with it?

Because Ironclaw is a system with a very flexible resolution system -- but a very restricted chargen system. I had a very limited number of points, and every point I put in one area, I had to think of what I gave up. Every decision I made evoked not what I was going to get on the charsheet, but what I was going to be able to do. I went for speed and grace (she's the fastest rhino in the East) and disarming, and left chargen not just with strong ideas of what she was going to do, but where she was going to go after character creation.

There, you have my fellow gearheads.

cosine wrote:
Aren't you here to recreate in a new telling the feel of the epics and the sagas?
What is the presumption that only something on the level of the great works will suffice?

While there are indeed RPG stories that will be told, they do not need all be made with the presumption that every person who sits down at the table will have the ability to write like a Shakespeare, Homer, or Gilbert & Sullivan. That is vaguely elitist -- and let's be honest; many people just aren't that great at narrating or roleplaying their actions.

The RPG stories told by gamist RPGs may not be great shakes -- the slasher flicks, pulp comics, and late-late-show films -- but there is a simple reason why they keep being made, and why they keep being treasured: They're simple, guilty pleasure. And even these simple, guilty pleasures can become treasured stories, made epic not through their forceful artistic craftsmanship, but through their retelling and sharing with friends: I present the new Star Trek movie, the original Star Wars movie, and the first Matrix movie.

I'd also put forwards that purely character-driven games can rather quickly grow flat. As an example of media where the only conflict is internal to a group and the stories are an endless cycle of character development, I present the soap opera.

cosine wrote:
Do you really need all those rules to pull that off?
The rules are not the enemy. RPG systems does not chase storylines down dark alleys and shank it for its dierolls.

A well-written rules-heavy system enables fun in several ways, of which I'm eloquent enough to explain just a few:

They take the work out of making rulings. With a dramatist RPG, the GM (or whomever has the equivalent authority in that system) not only has to weigh what would happen, but what should happen. His response is altered as he has to ponder whether or not the outcome suits his epic's plan. That's more stress on the GM, which is already the most stressful job.

When you have RPGs where everyone has this role -- then you are in a world of hurt. I love octaNe for its atmosphere and two-guns-albazing run-and-gun style, but in that game, it's perfectly valid on a roll of all-fives-or-better to suddenly declare yourself God and Winner For All Time. That's an extreme example (and an extremely forced example), but illustrates how suddenly every player is responsible for every other player having fun.

A rule-heavy game doesn't just tell you whether or not something works, it tells you the effects of success or failure. You no longer have to decide: What does my character do, and how does it happen, you just have to decide: What would my character do? Leaving the exact results of that attempt up to the system takes the stress of 'authoring' out of what is usually a simple yes-or-no decision.

They give you explicit options. It happens in every RPG ever: you run out of ideas of things to do. Gamist games try to keep you from freezing by giving you things to do, whether it is a list of situational feats for your attack rolls or a list of spells, mutations, or weapons you can use.

And what is a character sheet but a big list of Stuff You Can Do? In the first RPG, it was simple: Class, Attributes, THAC0. Then, it was defined in terms of skills (GURPS), then in powers (Hero), until today, where you have games like D&D 4e and Exalted with well-defined abilities that have explicit rulings for What You Can Do, How You Do It, and What Happens If It Works (Or Doesn't). Gamist RPGs just embrace this calling, and celebrate what you can do instead of giving you vague themes and hoping you come up with things to do with them when it's your turn.

This is something gamist and simulationist games have in common -- just that gamist games are concerned with the balance of what's there, and simulationist games are concerned with the fairness of how you got it there.

cosine wrote:
Slaying monsters for imaginary treasures... is that really rewarding when it comes with no soul?
The soul of roleplaying is not in the story it tells, although all roleplaying certainly tells stories. It's in the time we spend with others, getting away from the work-a-day world and into the setting of our stories. And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if this world runs by the rules of drama, the rules of battle, or the rules of carefully-simulated number crunching -- it's enough that the rules are different from our everyday lives.

Fourth edition D&D and its like will be critically assaulted until fifth edition comes out - but at the end of the day, all of us playing it know we'll be welcoming our friends back next week for another happy evening of hacking, slashing, heroing, looting, levelling, and knocking back a few and sharing stories at the tavern.

This is the soul of roleplaying.

cosine wrote:
maybe I can pierce the veil of mystery around just these two with someone to defend their causes... care to take a swing at it?
I'm always a happy gamer, often a tweaky simulator, but never a narrativist. (Or at least, I think those are the labels that would be applied to me; all three of those playstyle labels are pure elitist drivel, anyways.) It's harder to defend than attack, but I hope I made a fair show of it =3

And... I've been far too wordy and I'm supposed to be playing D&D right now, so I think I'll return to that...
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The Harnish
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I'm not sure I'm following or even agree with your definition of "crunchy." If I were to ignore your labels of what kind of system you think you're describing above, I'd swear you were playing FATE or even something diceless like Amber because nowhere did you call for a roll. That's not crunch.

It sounds more like you're confusing crunch with the "level of detail" and "player narrative contributions" - A crunchy system could easily hand wave everything you just described by letting someone make a "spaceship engineering" skill check (or series of checks) - no roleplaying, creativity, or even specifics involved. Similarly, a very heavy, story-now kind of game could ask players to come up with a very specific plan on how to fix their ship and only give them bonuses for creative solutions - maybe they roll, maybe they don't.

In my experience, the crunchier the system, the less creative players are because they tend to fall back upon "my character knows it because I rolled high enough." This probably is due in part to the fact that most crunchy systems tend to be very simulationist in style. Keep in mind that doesn't necessarily mean they're realistic, only that they try to simulate the world using some sort of mechanics and checks. A more narrativist-centric game is going to encourage players to come up with solutions (even if they're pulling the stuff out of their butt) that create an exciting and coherent story.

All of this is independent o realism which depends much more upon the group and what they want - I guarantee if you put a group of aerospace engineers together they're going to come up with much more real-world based solutions than a bunch of teenagers, whether it's a story-heavy system or not.
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Judge Death wrote:
BTW, again the EABA system really could handle ALL the details in the example above, as yet another shameless plug for my favorite system.

the EABA System is in the database as a [system] but there are no [rpgs] nor [rpgitems] listed that use it?
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Judge Death wrote:
Au contraire! I've reviewed two gameworlds written for it: Neoterra and code:black.

then you need to submit corrections to get their [rpg] linked up to the system as it is currently barren:

EABA
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Judge Death wrote:
Well, I tried to add a linked item and after a few fruitless minutes decided I was tired of pounding my head against a wall.

[system] links are made at the [rpg] level. neither "neotera" nor "code:black" are [rpgs] so you wouldn't make the link there. the appropriate place would be in the "EABA" [rpg] entry (you can get to that page by clicking it from either neorterra or code:black, search, or browse). once on the EABA [rpg] page, hit the "submit corrections" link, then at the [system] line hit the (+) and type "EABA", select it from the resulting list, then hit submit correction.

which step was failing for you?
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the EABA link i posted was to show that there were no associated items under the system, try following the directions i posted above and see if you can get it to work for you
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All I want is crunch. I love building my character. I hate actually playing them, the stories are always dull.
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I like a game where the rules almost never get in the way.

The rules should focus on what the game needs to focus on, and get out of the way for the roleplaying otherwise.

D&D, Champions, Gurps, all are very complex combat systems, because that's the focus of the game. I liked Mutants and Masterminds and True 20 for stripping down most of the D&D system.

Now I like the complex system for 7th sea, but that's because it's a swashbuckling game, and I want all the detail of the fighting styles and maneuvers when a fight breaks out.

In general though, I like games where one roll resolved the action. I really liked the systems in Unknown Armies and Over the Edge, where a simple roll using the same resolution system covers everything.
 
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Sherri Stewart
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Crunch does two positive things. 1) It defines the contract between the GM and the players. 2) It provides a framework for defining what your character (not you) can do in a given situation and giving a sense of how likely you are to succeed.

Crunch has the potential to do several negative things. 1) Slow down the flow of things if it is inelegant, unintuitive or just plain complicated. 2) Discourage possible sensible and/or creative solutions or types of spectacle because there is either no rule for it or the rules have managed to make it impractical (whether it should be or not).

However, the real discussion here might be better pinned to the following ideas about game systems: Low detail vs. High detail; Low Trust vs. High Trust.

Low detail is...well, you don't get hit locations and maybe you don't have maneuvers, persay. You do stuff--and it gets tested against a broad skill/stat formula. That's quick. It's easy. It isn't evocative, in and of itself. You've got to bring the cool stuff to the table yourself, and you've got to be ready to argue that it can be done. That or you just spend the evening failing/succeeding and, eh whatever. Takes work on the part of the GM and the player to make it exciting and satisfying.

High detail? Your dice are gonna do all the work--that and your list of character and cheat sheet minutiae. Your stunning successes come from a string of good rolls and well-called maneuvers to address the situation. When you look back, you're more likely to think, "I was rolling hot that night--it was great!"

I am not discounting the satisfaction to be gained in either. I like 'em both, done well.

But one of the things that's getting tangled up in this discussion of crunch is Trust level.

I think Aramis is an incredibly articulate advocate of the Low Trust approach. It's fair. The contracts are set in stone. He's very clear that he doesn't want useless mechanics in his way--but he wants GM and players to know exactly how it's all going to roll out, and the dice are pretty much the sole arbitrators. It's ridiculous to think that his games are any less entertaining for that. They are fun. Everyone knows what they've got going in and they come out happy and satisfied.

Let's face it--there are dirty little secrets in RPG that we aren't going to ever talk about when we're talking about superior approaches--we're not going to mention GM pet players and attention hogs. We're just don't usually. And while Low Trust systems generate their own little types of monsters--the munchkins and the points-gamers--they keep some of the more hurtful jerks at bay.

Now, if you've got a group devoid of the GM pets and attention hogs, and you've got a smart, fast, clever GM, you can safely start enjoying High Trust systems. And, man, when they're good--they are the best. It's not sandbox 'well, my guy is bigger AND meaner than your guy' play. High Trust has rules too, but they edge closer to the camp of gentlemens agreements and social contracts. They talk about things like 'genre' and 'matrix arguments'. High Trust is give-and-take between GM and players...and that takes practice.

Do I like High Trust, Low Detail? You bet--with the right GM and the right players. Wait, no. I LOVE High Trust, Low Detail with the right GM and the right players.

But in truth, I like all flavors of gaming, and I can Crunch with the best of them. I enjoy the exercise of building up the 'framework' of my character from points and figuring out what my success chances are. And frankly, if I'm playing at a table with a few jerks in and among the crowd, gimme Low Trust and High Detail. At least then, I get a decent precalculated chance at satisfaction.



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Also important is where the crunch points.

Burning Wheel, for example. 300 pages of character generation, skills, and traits lists. When you actually generate a character, you use about 60 pages of them... and in play, you use 5-10 paragraphs of that book for each character. LOTS of crunch.

The actual resolution system is about 30 pages... but 90% of it is 4 pages. The rest is special cases and examples.

Combat is a lot of pages... but in play, it's about 5 of them in regular use... the short version on a table is about all I need in play, plus about 3 pages of synopses... which are from the rulebook!

BW is high detail in some areas... and high trust.

But there's more to it. Some systems have detailed procedures, while others have lots of detailed cases, and others have lots of undetailed but individual cases.

The latter is exemplified by Classic Traveller. Every non-combat skill is a special case rule. None of them are highly detailed. The system, however, is a huge morass of special cases. Fans love that. Many consider it the worst feature of CT. Including, apparently, most of GDW's staff, as well as DGP, who were hired to revise CT into MegaTraveller. Every later version, and the GT, T20, and HeroTrav adaptations, has a consistent skill mechanic. It doesn't save space for MT, TNE, T4, nor MGT (since the sample tasks take as much space as the individual skill mechanics did), but it makes adding new tasks and applications of skill much more consistent and easier.

Not all big-crunch is from details. Sometimes it's just inconsistency. Sometimes it's special cases. Sometimes it's just long-winded explanation of a simple-but-hard-to-describe concept. Like Burning Empire's Firefight mechanic, or Classic Traveller's World Generation... Once you understand the text, you use the included shorthand tables instead.

Most of the time, I'm crunch neutral. I'm currently running BW (high crunch, med detail, long explanations for simple but precise processes with lots of special cases delineated, high trust), T&T (high trust, low detail, simple and consistent), and Arrowflight (Low trust, moderate detail, lots of special cases in regular use, but each is simple and low-detail).

What I dislike in my crunch is inconsistency. Like AD&D 2E with 3 different d20 roll mechanics. (D20, roll low; D20, roll high; d20, roll as close without going over as possible)

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darjr
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I think that I prefer less and less crunch... depending.
 
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Scott Dunphy
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aramis wrote:
Burning Wheel, for example. 300 pages of character generation, skills, and traits lists. When you actually generate a character, you use about 60 pages of them... and in play, you use 5-10 paragraphs of that book for each character. LOTS of crunch...

...BW is high detail in some areas... and high trust.


And it's also a character-driven game. I think there's a false dichotomy between story focused and crunch. They aren't mutually exclusive. While many story focused games have lighter systems, not all do and it's not out of necessity that they are light.

There also seems to be an inappropriate joining of storytelling and GM fiat in some posts in this thread. Everything I've played that I'd label storytelling actually greatly limits or excludes GM fiat (I'm definitely not talking about the White Wolf Storyteller system here).

I really like the juxtaposition of crunch and trust going on here. That is something really interesting to think about. I think games should have one or the other (or both) to be functional, but I prefer high trust systems these days (regardless of crunch level). My group isn't a bunch of kids playing cops and robbers in the backyard, we can have trust and agree on the levels of realism and verisimilitude we want in our games. But sometimes the tactics of the crunch is it's own fun we can engage in alongside the story (i.e. I love Burning Empires).
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Anthony Sr
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jadrax wrote:
If all you want to do is tell a story, write a book. Its a much better medium for it.


Some games have way to much crunch and they CAN and most likely do bog games down, but good GM's will make it work regardless. They could use plenty of "Trimming of the Fat".

With that said, some games try to hard to get by with too little crunch all in the name of not being D&D and are not any better then incomplete books.

I'm looking for that In between Games 50/50 crunch and fluff. Actually 40% crunch 60% fluff would be ideal. Give me a well painted Universe and just enough rules to make it work more then reasonably. I don't want to make up my own rules or flip a coin for pass fail.
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cosine wrote:
I'm a storyteller. To me, I don't really want a very gamist system

Everything is in that first sentence.
Personally I'm a GAMER who likes storytelling.

Roll-Play vs Role-Play. Roll-Play is often sneered on by those that prefer to Role-Play, but at the end of the day it's down to personal preference and having fun. If you prefer storytelling, nothing wrong with that. If players want to play a game which involves rolling lots of dice, nothing wrong with that either IMHO.
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Bryce Nakagawa
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Of course.

Crunch is objective. Storytelling is subjective.

Objective game rules eliminate personal bias. When you assemble a group of people with incompatible expectations about imaginary things like magic or FTL combat, a crunchy game system will make definitions and decisions that are clear to anyone who bothered to learn the rules.

Police procedure and courtroom procedure are highly structured affairs, and yet there exist genres called courtroom procedural drama and police procedural drama. So does the imposition of highly technical and detailed rule systems stifle storytelling?

Of course not. Others are doing it just fine. If it's not your bag, fine.
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Bryce Nakagawa
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cosine wrote:
I'm a storyteller. To me, I don't really want a very gamist system - I don't want thousands of pages of rules and tables and modifiers and charts... there's no game to be won in role playing and simulating some imaginary world under the illusion you are making it more "real" doesn't seem to have even a moment's appeal.

I look at the great films, the great works of literature - isn't that what we're all here for? They are story driven. Character driven. No one holds Super Mario up against the Iliad as a realistic comparison of quality - there's game for the little Italian plumber, but have you really accomplished anything, made a tale you'd want to tell when you rescue that Princess? And you, hunched over your rulebook for the last 6 hours tweaking your starship mass to weight ratio to see if you can get a few more meters per second out of it... that journey will never be Foundation in the telling, you know?

What is it you get out of a game with no story? Aren't you here to recreate in a new telling the feel of the epics and the sagas? Do you really need all those rules to pull that off? Slaying monsters for imaginary treasures... is that really rewarding when it comes with no soul? Optimizing the simulation is going to be great around the water cooler?

I don't understand you, gamer. Or you, simulater. I'll save why I think the storytellers are usually failing too for another thread; for now maybe I can pierce the veil of mystery around just these two with someone to defend their causes... care to take a swing at it?


This is a repost. I've seen this post before.

Quote:
What is it you get out of a game with no story?

A game. What do you get out of a story with no game?

And what exactly makes you think a crunchy RPG has no story?
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